I had spent a couple years researching "greater things" that the church use to live and do. That included Joseph Smith's history, church history and fundamentalist history. I even spent a couple years trying to find a priesthood group who might hold higher priesthood to live higher things. I even thought to be a part of the AUB in 2009, though I knew they too were "out of order" in the connection with heaven among their leadership (I had already seen that disconnect within mainstream Mormonism for over a century, and I was so sad to find other groups claiming that their Priesthood leaders have "all the keys", even more than the church held... only to find that they too suffer from that usual silence from heaven).
My LDS mainstream family and friends were alienating their hearts from me, for me simply trying to find out what happened with our history. I was searching church and fundamentalist histories. I was visiting different groups and places. Investigating all the different forms of Mormonism found in our day. After all, in our mainstream Mormon mindset, those kinds of members who seek, search, knock and ponder deeply... "go off the deep end", or become "apostate", so we falsely judge at times. The only people then welcoming me with open arms were fundamentalist friends. But my search there also ended up not yielding the fruits I was looking for. At this time I did know that no one was a Prophet quite like Joseph Smith was (seriously, look at his fruits), but I at least thought that Brigham and John Taylor were at least close to it. In late 2009 I was told by some new friends I met at Avraham Gileadi classes about Denver Snuffer. I had his first book setting on my shelf. I hadn't read it yet. I went home to begin. I read a few of his books. I began reading his blog. I commented a lot on his blog. I started contacting him via email early in 2010.
I had began to understand that Snuffer saw things being "out of order" clear back to the death of Joseph Smith and Hyrum. He told me there was a break (I can publicly say what he said privately in 2010, because he just declared it publicly in his plural marriage talk in 2015). But up to this point in my journey, I enjoyed some of the historical writings from and about Brigham Young and John Taylor. I mean, Pres Taylor was a stalwart type of man who would stand up for what he thought was true and right, no matter what. He said he would not give up on plural marriage being lived within the church, but that another President would have to do that. He sacrificed and suffered much to do so. Pres. Woodruff said he would never give up on it as well, at least at first. Then later he gives the manifesto as a way to deceptively make the government think that they had given up on it. If you have read Michael Quin's history on that topic: http://www.lds-mormon.com/quinn_polygamy.shtml - you will soon realize that press release, sometimes considered a "revelation" in mainstream Mormonism, was a red herring... a way to dishonestly try to get Utah territory to become a part of the United States, while still secretly continuing to live "their religion". The U.S. government wanted the Mormons to give up on plural marriage before giving them statehood. The leadership of the Mormons did not want to give up on something that Pres Young had begun within the church as a whole, and started teaching was a mandatory thing to become "one of the Sons of God" or to get into the highest degree of the celestial kingdom. Well, that press release was not in their minds to honor. In actuality, if you read the first manifesto, it really says they would stop doing plural marriages within the confines of the USA (or Utah territory they wanted to be a part of it). The leadership and others kept taking new wives after 1890. But they would have marriages performed secretly or outside the USA. They tried to "meet in the middle". But essentially, it was dishonest and deceptive to do what they did. That is why Pres. J.F. Smith had to issue another manifesto in 1906. There were a few more plural marriages that took place with church leadership approval even after that.
So here we are in 2015. Denver Snuffer and many within the LDS Remnant Community or the "new movement" (or rather the continuation of the restoration that began with Joseph Smith) that is occurring, are now saying that things have been out of order since 1844. I just recently had someone say to me (and I've been told the same before) something to the effect that: I can't accept or be a part of the LDS Remnant, because I don't like what they say about Brigham Young and John Taylor. Hence, the writing of this post.
But what does Snuffer and many within the new movement actually state? I think we allow Brigham Young to speak for himself. We discuss some of the negative history about Brigham's life that most do not want to hear, and we let others come to their own conclusion on the matter. But, you have to actually do some reading and research. What did he do as church President and Politician? What did he think? What were some things Brigham didn't understand, that he should have, if he held the keys to get answers to questions? Why was there a period of 3 years of confusion after the death of Joseph Smith? Have you read Andrew Ehat's BYU thesis paper on that matter yet? If not, you should stop and read it now: http://www.scribd.com/doc/35205295/Joseph-Smith-s-Introduction-of-Temple-Ordinances-and-the-1844-Mormon-Succession-Question-by-Andrew-Ehat#scribd
Let Brigham speak for himself:
"I am not a prophet, nor the son of a prophet…” The Office Journal of Brigham Young, 1858-1863, Book D (Hanna, UT: Collier’s Publishing Co., 2006),
Journal of Discourses, 5:177
"I do not profess to be a Prophet. I never called myself so; but I actually believe I am, because people are all the time telling me that I am."
"I am not going to interpret dreams; for I don’t profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser;” Brigham Young, Sermon, July 26, 1857, JD 5:77.
"I have never particularly desired any man to testify publicly that I am a Prophet; nevertheless, if any man feels joy, in doing this, he shall be blest in it. I have never said that I am not a Prophet; but, if I am not, one thing is certain, I have been very profitable to this people.” Brigham Young, Sermon, October, 7, 1864, JD 10:339.
"A person was mentioned to-day who did not believe that Brigham Young was a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator. I wish to ask every member of this whole community, if they ever heard him profess to be a Prophet, Seer, and Revelator, as Joseph Smith was? . . . Who ordained me to be First President of this Church on earth? I answer, It is the choice of this people, and that is sufficient." Journal of Discourses, 6:320
"You are now without a prophet present with you in the flesh to guide you; but you are not without apostles . . ." Times and Seasons, 5:618
The brethren testify that brother Brigham is brother Joseph's legal successor. You never heard me say so. I say that I am a good hand to keep the dogs and wolves out of the flock. I do not care a groat who rises up. I do not think anything about being Joseph's successor. (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:69.)
Another's retelling of what Brigham told her:
"Later near the end of his life, Susa Young Gates recorded that when asked if he had ever seen the Savior, Brigham responded that he hadn’t, and that he didn’t expect to until he died." Note, 1885, Susa Young Gates Collection, Box 11, Folder 1, Subfolder 1, Utah State Archives, Salt Lake City.
Mary Rollins Lightner, one of Joseph’s wives, wrote about her confrontation with an Angel. She remembered a bit of a conflict with Brigham in the waning days of Nauvoo and wrote that “he Said he would give anything to have seen what I had.” Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner, Autobiography, in B. Carmon Hardy, ed., Doing the Works of Abraham: Mormon Polygamy: It’s Origin, Practice, and Demise (Norman, OK: Arthur H. Clark Co., 2007), 48.
By their fruits?
"Let me suppose a case. Suppose you found your brother in bed with your wife, and put a javelin through both of them, you would be justified, and they would atone for their sins, and be received into the kingdom of God. I would at once do so in such a case; and under such circumstances, I have no wife whom I love so well that I would not put a javelin through her heart, and I would do it with clean hands.” (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, pg. 247, 1856)
"…They are the old hardened sinners, and are almost—if not altogether—past improvement, and are full of hell, and my prayer is that God's indignation may rest upon them, and that He will curse them from the crown of their heads to the soles of their feet. I say, that there are men and women that I would advise to go to the President immediately, and ask him to appoint a committee to attend to their case; and then let a place be selected, and let that committee shed their blood… I would ask how many covenant breakers there are in this city and in this kingdom. I believe that there are a great many; and if they are covenant breakers we need a place designated, where we can shed their blood… They are a perfect nuisance, and I want them cut off, and the sooner it is done the better.” (J.M. Grant, First Presidency, Journal of Discourses vol. 4: 219-220 Sept. 21,1856 SLC, Utah)"
Ok, so you get the picture. Above is what Brigham Young said about himself. There are a couple quotes of what others said Brigham stated to them. If you want to make more of Brigham than what he himself said of himself, that is your prerogative I suppose.
So, I came across quotes like these on my own. I knew none of the LDS Presidents after Joseph were prophets like he was. Then in 2012, Snuffer wrote this for a sunstone presentation. It is definitely worth the read. Full of quotes and history of the time Brigham Young was at the head of the church and territory: http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/BrighamYoungsTelestialKingdomRevised.pdf
In 2012, Denver published Passing the Heavenly Gift (search on Amazon.com), which contains some more hard to hear history that occurred under Brigham's leadership. You can say that I had a very hard time dealing with some of this history, as I once had thought that "the break" or that things were "out of order" since 1890, after Pres. Taylor.
Another good read about why things are out of order since Joseph, and where Denver states the break is the break in the Patriarchal Order that God was trying to restore with Joseph Smith, read Denver's Plural Marriage talk here: http://denversnuffer.com/wp/download/Plural_Marriage.mp3.zip
Be sure to take note of Brigham's dream about Joseph Smith in Denver's talk above. Brigham misunderstood the Law Of Adoption as a whole. Others were asking him what to do with that principle. Brigham has a dream of meeting Joseph Smith. In that dream Brigham ask's Joseph what to do, and Joseph doesn't answer his question, but just says to just follow the spirit. Here Brigham has a question. He doesn't know what to say on it. Even in his dream, and let's suppose it is inspired, then Joseph Smith is avoiding answering his question, precisely because not even Brigham Young is on par enough to receive the answer.
Also consider the history about Brigham making plural marriage a public church requirement. Remember, Joseph Smith was in fact sealing wives to himself (though we have no proof of him having relations that produced offspring with his sealed plural wives), and allowing very few others to live it as well. It was for a tight knit group within the church, but not a church wide thing to live in Joseph's day. If God actually wanted them to keep this going within the church, wouldn't He have made a way for their escape, for it to remain? Wouldn't God had protected their "religious right" and kept it in the church if it was as important as Brigham stated?
Though this history is hard to read or hear, it is necessary to understand why things have been out of order since Joseph Smith, Jr.
Ok, what about Pres. Taylor and Woodruff?
Well, if things were out of order since Joseph left the church to themselves, maybe it got back in order somewhere after Brigham? I wish that was the case.
Now, didn't the Lord state that He would fight their battles, if they were in the right way? Pres. Taylor spent a lot of time defending this principle. The familiar picture of him and the presidency in jailbird stripes comes to mind. The feds were threatening to not give them statehood. Taylor stood up for what he thought was right. He never gave in to their "enemies".
At first, Pres. Woodruff gives a couple revelations saying that they should never give up on this principle. Later we here him attending a meeting at the Bohemian Grove. Probably invited their by other elite. You can search that for yourself, it is still going on today in CA. Presidents and wealthy still attend it. They don't know what their ritual is actually teaching them, but they do participate. Alex Jones exposed it all on youtube and you can search it there. Woodruff at first said they would never give up on it. But the USA pressured him and the other leaders enough to make them afraid and to give in to that manipulative pressure. They were afraid of having their new buildings and new temples taken away from them by the feds if they did not give it up. So they try to fake it, hoping they can get their statehood and openly live plural marriage again later. The plan didn't work. Plural marriage was later completely removed from the church and it has never been brought back since. That same church began to reject members who didn't want to give it up just like the leaders had formerly done, and after being taught for decades that is was required for exaltation. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
Now ask yourself, why would God allow this to be removed from the Church, if Pres. Woodruff or Pres. J.F. Smith held the keys? Didn't the Lord declare that He would fight their battles? Why did Pres. Brigham Young have to ponder and the have a dream were Joseph wouldn't even answer him there? If our President's automatically get to hold "the Keys", what are they? Pres. Taylor tried to put together a "Book of Keys", trying to figure out what they are. Do they magically get them because we sustain them as our Priesthood Presidents? What about the key to ask and receive answers? Surely they were asking, and surely they were not receiving like the Prophet Joseph did, or like the many that fill our scriptures. It looks to me that the Lord never wanted to keep plural marriage alive, let alone make it a church requirement for highest exaltation. If there was a break, and men go on claiming to hold all the keys that Joseph held, while also understanding that they are not even close to being connected with God like he was... would God want this not very-well understood principle made as a church wide program? Could it be that God actually wanted it to end the way it was being practiced, and used the government to eradicate before more of a mess could be made?
Keep looking into church history after the manifestos. Keep looking into Mormon fundamentalist history since short creek. Things do not get any better. The whole thing just gets more confusing. More division is the usual course to so much confusion, being tossed to and fro. You have the plural marriage confusion. You have current LDS leaders going against what Pres. Brigham Young said about blacks never be able to hold priesthood, and the current leadership saying that they do not accept anyone who says such things. We have continued changes, doctrines and removals in LDS temple ordinances. Here we are today, confusion still reigns, while so many still claim to hold the only valid all powerful Keys over any other LDS group.
So, if you have read all of these statements from history, and read all of the articles linked to in this blog post... has your view changed? Can you now consider what some of us have already considered, and see what we see? If not, please do some more research and praying on the matter and get back with me:)
Denver Snuffer explains some good things on priesthood, plural marriage and the Patriarchal Order in his plural marriage talk linked to above (and his blog and in Passing the Heavenly Gift). This topic has been quite controversial and messy since Joseph Smith... but there is an answer as to why things have been out or order and so confusing. There is always an explanation, a reason. Our great Patriarchs Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (and others) lived plurality and did raise children through all of their wives. Joseph Smith did state that he intended to bring back all that the priesthood of the past had, as part of the restoration of all things. Surely an interesting topic that has plagued Mormonism, Judaism and others since it was lived by those in our Old Testament.
I love the Lord. I love what He was trying to restore with Joseph Smith and prophets in our scriptures. Though my journey was mentally painful at times, the answers did come. I was patient. I sought the truth above my own pre-conceived understandings. I was and still am, a true seeker of truth. I know the Lord can come through for you and answer any question you may have. It may take some time, some underlying necessary fore knowledge, and then some more time and explanation... but seek and you shall find.
So, consider and then get back with me. Let me know when we can setup your baptism to show your faith in the continued work of the Father in our day, ok? :)
To the truth and nothing but,
MJ
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